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Which side would YOU choose?
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Virturealm



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally....I can't do decisions. I'm pretty sure being turned into an amnesiac macguffin on a strange world surrounded by two factions wielding deadly force would trigger a full on catatonic stupor under the pressure. So which side is going to carry me back?
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Violabelle



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 183
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if Jormand had come for me, I would have gladly followed... ::cough::
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Eee



Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sasha Lupine wrote:
Quote:
...We don't know that Earthsong sent her children out on purpose in order to be justified for killing Bel. Yes, I have always viewed Earthsong as EVIL. >___>

~~~

Plus, Bel is just too awesome to be pure evil.


We are handicapped in making assessments because, while we know in general what Bel is after (the Throne and Soulstones), we don't know why he wants them. Or how he got to the condition he currently is in, and if that condition has any bearing on his actions. But regarding those actions, assuming Earthsong's recounting of the events leading up to the war is accurate, we know the following. Beluosus regards Soulstone bearers with contempt ("worthless creatures"), perhaps even hatred, and kills and enslaves them without apparent concern or mercy; he is willing to harm Earthsong and maybe his other siblings ("you are but the first to fall"); and he inflicts pain deliberately and even sadistically (removing Nanashi's Soulstone slowly). He also will lie when it suits his purpose, as we saw with Tristram. Under the circumstances, while he may not be pure evil, we can be fairly sure Beluosus is not on the side of the angels regardless of his motives.

(On the flip side - and possibly regarding those motives - it seems Beluosus is the most intelligent planet of all, since he came up with the plan on how to fix the Soulstone problem before even the Alpha planets, who had had much more time to consider solutions. This raises a kind of Adrian Veidt of 'The Watchmen' problem: If the smartest one there is does something horrible, is it because he is evil, or because he sees what others don't? Or both?)

Sasha Lupine wrote:
Everyone/thing has some evil in them. ^^

Edit by Tinalles: made the quote a proper quote.


Earthsong has demonstrated she can deceive via omission and misdirection (downplaying the import of touching her manifest gem to Willow when it actually was a very big deal indeed). And that she can act imperiously and even angrily, especially towards Bel. But aside from those things - and again, assuming her stories are true and complete - there's really nothing to suggest ES isn't the benevolent mother figure she seems.

Time will tell.
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PurpleCactusPlant



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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Location: 2010 Olympics (Please enjoy them, b/c I am paying for them).

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Violabelle wrote:
Well, if Jormand had come for me, I would have gladly followed... ::cough::


Do we have the same taste in men or something?
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TDTC



Joined: 23 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eee, yes... but enemies are enemies. =P But I see your point.
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ichigoli



Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i can see Bel as being a sympathetic character honestly. especially since i had a very convincing dream about it recently ^_^; heh....

but seriously though... he seems, from what we've seen and heard, to treat the Mandragoras fairly well...
"Skogul: The only thing he won't let me have is you"

and he only inflicts pain under disobedience to a direct order.


The other thing that i've seen mentioned as to why the Mandragoras are "bad" is that they don't get along at all... Jormand and Morgan hate each other but then again we saw a very similar (if slightly less violent) confrontation between Felluca and Zaebos so that can't be discounted...

besides, who said everyone had to get along?


anyway back to Bel. I guess judgment can't be passed until we know more about why he is doing what he is. he's already discounted revenge so what else could it be? until we know his motives we don't have a clue whether or not he is the 'bad guy'... poor guy is dying... i doubt he would do that to himself on purpose...
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crazedartist



Joined: 28 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ichigoli wrote:
i doubt he would do that to himself on purpose...


I don't doubt it. Obviously he wouldn't want it to backfire, but I've always assumed his current state is due to experimenting with supercharging his own children using soulstone power. Which led to disaster...

I mean, he seems like a real power-monger. Nobody else gave him children to experiment on so he just used his own.
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Sasha Lupine



Joined: 26 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazedartist wrote:

I don't doubt it. Obviously he wouldn't want it to backfire, but I've always assumed his current state is due to experimenting with supercharging his own children using soulstone power. Which led to disaster...

I mean, he seems like a real power-monger. Nobody else gave him children to experiment on so he just used his own.


So, Bel is just a crazy scientist-type guy who wants to experiment with soulstones? Sounds sane enough.
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ichigoli



Joined: 11 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh excellent point... the one flaw i can see is that unless he had some prior knowledge to the goings on with the soulstones i doubt he could have devised a plan so quickly when the sideria called... so either the theory is flawed OR it's much deeper than anyone guessed...
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spellingmistax



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My choice in this matter would have been made based on both sides’ actions and words towards each other rather then what they said to me. Since most of the combat would have happened to fast for me to follow I would have had to base my choice more on what was said then any actions taken. (Apart from the death of Richard)

Skogul is the first person Willow actually gets to talk to, she is very polite and actually asks if
"we go a little somewhere to talk about it?"
Also in her favor is the fact that she pushed willow behind her, I would have seen this as an attempt to protect me. However all her good work is not helped by what she said next.

‘Let her go, Skogul’- Nanashi
‘No this one’s mine’ -Skogul

"Let her go" could be a very well though out bit of physiological warfare to put doubt into my mind over who was friendly towards me, but I would have found Skoguls answer to be far too possessive.

The key point for me though would have to be Richards words just before he drops a rock on Tengu.
“You’re just lucky I don’t have time to make this painful!”

A real desire to make your opponents death as painful as possible would not encourage me to join your team. (On a side note if he had just smashed Tengu with the rock Nanashi would not have know she was in trouble and he would have succeed in killing her)

Compare it to the simple and straight forward 'execution' of Richard. No talk of making this hurt more, just telling him he will not be able to stop her. This was the standard ‘trash talk’ both sides use during the fight. Though it must be noted that Nanashis side where arguably less... descriptive in there threats.

Skoguls reaction to his disappearance would help her cause a lot, real pain and anger at the disappearance of her companion and is only stopped by the intervention of Bel. Though his method of stopping him did not look at all pleasant.

On balance i would have gone with Nanashis group if given a choice. Especially in light of Skogul parting words "she’s probably worthless anyhow"
Though that could easily be attributed to the grief of losing a friend

I am aware that all that happened in the opining scene could be very easily be talked around by Bel and/or Skogul. But they are never given that chance. The choice was effectively made by those who won the combat.

Ichigoli brings up some very good points
Quote:
he seems, from what we've seen and heard, to treat the Mandragoras fairly well...
"Skogul: The only thing he won't let me have is you"
he only inflicts pain under disobedience to a direct order.
who said everyone had to get along


All of which is true. And there is only one i can answer due to the fact we have never seen Earthsong reprimand her followers.

He treats those Mandragoras he keeps and are loyal to him well. Remember Tristram? Why is he not in Bel's home base? Of both planets who kills and who sends home?

Who said everyone has to get along? Good point. There friendships and dislikes in both camps.
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